Dance Unscripted

Ep 13: Dance, A Life Lesson with Kathy Dunn Hamrick

• Season 1 • Episode 13

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In this episode of Dance Unscripted, host Amy Elizabeth engages in a heartfelt conversation with Kathy Dunn Hamrick, a prominent figure in the dance community. They explore Kathy's journey from her early days in dance to her role as a leader and mentor in the Austin dance scene. The discussion highlights the importance of resilience, community investment, and the business side of dance. Kathy shares her insights on audience experience, leadership, and the creative problem-solving skills necessary for success in the arts. As she transitions from her role as artistic director, Kathy reflects on her future in dance and the legacy she hopes to leave behind.

Season One of Dance Unscripted is brought to you by a grant from the Lamar University Center for Resiliency.

Kathy's Links:

Social Media - @kathydunnhamrick

Kathy's Book - https://www.kdhdance.com/alifeindance



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Amy Elizabeth:

Welcome to Dance Unscripted. I am your host, Amy Elizabeth. Today, we are joined by Kathy Dunn Hamrick. Kathy has committed her professional life to dancing, teaching, choreographing, presenting, mentoring, writing about dance, and advocating for modern dance and dance makers. She founded Kathy Dunn Hamrick Dance Company in Austin, Texas, creating over 50 works and receiving multiple awards over the past 25 years. During her tenure as artistic director of the company, Kathy also taught at professional conferences, provided professional development for educators, directed artistic residencies for high schools and universities, led outreach programs for elementary and middle schools, served as a mentor for Austin emerging arts leaders, opened Hamrick Warren, a professional modern dance school in residence at Cafe Dance, and founded Austin Dance Festival. In 2018, Kathy was inducted into the Austin Arts Hall of Fame as a model for the artists who approaches each project in a spirit of experimentation and reinvention. After retiring in 2024 as artistic director of both the dance company and the festival, she published A Life in Dance and is currently writing dance profiles, features, and reviews. I'm thrilled to talk with Kathy today about her life in the field of dance and what that experience has taught her regarding resilience as a dancer and, well, a citizen. So Kathy, it is such a delight to have you join us for season one and help us launch this venture. How are you today? I'm fine. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, it is. A delight. I will admit, I've been following you for quite some time. Thank you. When I was finishing up my undergrad, and then again, when I was finishing up my master's, I knew I was going to be in Texas, but I didn't know where. And I looked into the Austin dance scene and what was happening there. And what I found was you. Oh, yeah, I'm here. Yes. I've Yeah, your company and what you've been doing there for so long. And I see that the Austin dance community is really expanding right now. But from my introduction to dance in Austin, Texas, there has been Kathy Dunn Hamrick Dance. And most recently, I've actually been able to engage and enjoy Austin Dance Festival and be able to interact with the company. And it's been such, well, a delight to be able to watch the company to grow all these years. I'm so glad to hear that. Thank you. Can we begin with the early days of dance for you? How did you get started in dance and what are some of the key moments that led you to Austin?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Okay. I'm from Nacogdoches, which is a small town and there are not a lot of opportunities in small towns, but there were dance classes and I was lucky to be able to take dance class. I loved dance class. I think that my level of commitment was obvious pretty early by my teachers and by my family. So a lot of people helped me along the way. I cannot even count the number of people who gave me opportunities, who encouraged me to dream big. And let me just preface this by saying this is long before the internet. So my only connection to the professional dance world was Dance Magazine. That was it. And so anyway, I relied... My parents weren't in the arts or dance, so I was kind of on my own, except for all of these teachers, some of those even older dance students who helped me out. So recognizing that there are many people upon whose shoulders I stand, there are really kind of two people that I feel were integral in shaping me as a professional dancer. So when I was in middle school in Nacogdoches, a woman named Maurice Goebel moved to town and she had been a soloist with the Paris Opera Ballet. So what are the odds of that? And at this time, she had retired as a dancer, but was a nurse. But she opened a studio in her garage and I started taking classes from her and I was just hooked. This was really my first exposure to the real thing, to someone outside of my community who believed in me. and encouraged me and let me take extra classes and taught me how to do stage makeup. You know, she was the person for me who was sort of a catalyst to moving outside of my community. So then I got my degree at UT in dance, moved to New York, moved to Florida, got married, moved to Virginia, moved back to Texas. I actually taught at Stephen F. Austin for two years. It was just, you know, a set. Can you come teach for two years? So I was back in Nacogdoches. And then my husband and child and I moved to Austin so my husband could finish his PhD, which is where I hooked up with the next person who really was influential. And that's Kate Warren. And she and I are still great friends today. I began teaching dance in the community, performing with Kay Braden, setting my works on other dance companies and also producing producing my own work in town. And then there just came a point where I was ready to form a company of dancers so that we could build something together so we could make art on this mutual foundation of curiosity, investigation, and commitment. I didn't want to keep starting over. I wanted to really grow as an artist. And I felt like we could do that if I had a dance company rather than more of a pickup style dance company. So that's how I ended up back in Austin and kind of got started.

Amy Elizabeth:

It's actually, I mean, I'm also a small town Texas girl.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

You are? Where are you from?

Amy Elizabeth:

I'm actually from Fanett, Texas, which is about 30 minutes outside of Beaumont. And there was a one room studio. And that's where I got my start. And I didn't even know what modern dance was until I went to college for dance.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Isn't that crazy? The same. Now, I did take a summer workshop when I was 15 and I took my first modern class from Jerry Bywater's Cochran in Graham Technique. And then I didn't have anything to go back to, really. Well, that's not kind of true because Stephen F. Austin was there and I was allowed to start going to Stephen F. after my junior year. So I immediately enrolled in all the dance classes and got very involved in that and had more exposure to modern. So I was really fortunate in that, too. But yeah, that's cool. That's cool that you're also from a small

Amy Elizabeth:

Texas town. A small Texas town girls. I tell you what, we have a lot of grit. That's what I've decided. That's a really good observation. I like that. We do. And I also think that there's this idea of maximizing your resources. Absolutely. It seems like that's what you were able to do. You know, you had this teacher that took you under her wing, taught you all of these things, exposed you to these things. And it's like, this is what I have. I have dance magazine. I have this teacher and I have a supportive family who may not know what I'm doing. I think that I've been speaking a different language than my family for quite some time now. And they just, at this point, it's like, she's just being Amy. I'm going to take it. I'm going to take it. So as a community teacher, a choreographer, a dancer, a producer, I mean, as we've been talking about on this podcast, we wear many hats and we do a multitude of things. Starting this company, what do you know now that you wish you had known at the start of that company?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

That art is a business. That dance is art. No, you back that up. Yeah, dance is art plus business. And... I just didn't know that. I didn't realize that. I wasn't taught that. I didn't receive those skills in any of my education. And because I didn't end up teaching full time in a university, I really had to find my own way in the community. Learn how to do that. Learn how to raise money. Learn how to produce my own work. And yes, it is a business. And I might have caught on a little bit faster, a little bit sooner if I had realized that. It didn't take me too long, but that's the one message I have for young dancers, emerging artists. It is your art, but it's also a business. Well, and how much of

Amy Elizabeth:

that... How much of that are you willing to take on or how much of that are you willing to invest in? I think, because I think that art as a business means different things depending on which track you go down. And I would say for the performer, you are your own marketing team. And so understanding the marketing, understanding contracts, understanding your worth, understanding how taxes work. Yeah. We don't step out knowing these things. And then from an administrative standpoint, it's a physical entity, an organization. Now you have other people relying on you. You might have staff and employees. You have dancers. You have production technicians. I think that what I've noticed is the biggest shift is why I just created all of this art in school. that when I graduate, I'll just keep creating all this art, but the studio space isn't there. The bodies that you were creating before aren't there. It actually costs money to turn the lights on in the building. 100%.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yes. Yes. You're paying rent. So your dancers better freaking show up on time and be prepared because we don't have all day. And for me though, to the whole business side in a way is investing in your community and appreciating and respecting your audience members. I think those two things are key to supporting everything else that you just talked about. If you can't invest in your community, if you don't respect your audience, you're not going to be able

Amy Elizabeth:

to build. Can you go into detail on what some of that investing in the community looked like for you?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

For me, and everybody has their own way of doing, of going about this. Everybody will find their own way. For me, it was teaching dance classes in the community. I also taught in elementary schools, as you mentioned in the bio, did residencies all over the place. But teaching for me was sort of the way I began to invest in my community. And Yeah, I would say that's the number one thing. And then I want to talk about audiences for just a second because you're so right on when you say that you're given certain things as a student and college that you don't realize you're not going to have access to. And one of those is audiences. In undergraduate and graduate school, it never occurred to me once to try to build an audience. I didn't have to worry if people came. I didn't have to worry if people walked in. That wasn't my bill. I think it's important to give your audience the best experience they can have. And that comes down to even sight lines. If I can't see your work, I'm so frustrated. I don't want to come back if I can't see it because of the poor sight lines. Or even now, I still go to shows sometimes where I'm in the second row of chairs all flat on the floor, you know, and no stage. And I can't see anything except the heads of people every once in a while.

Amy Elizabeth:

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

And that is such a disservice to me as an audience member, to the dancers, and really even to the choreographer. So you can tell that's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I just want to say, stop it. Just don't do that. Figure out a way. Be resilient. Find a better way to do this. So I think that kind of respect, giving them quality work, paying attention to the details, all of the details of your work. Those things are really important to me and I cannot emphasize them enough.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah, I mean, that audience experience, some of the things that I've learned is... that some of the things that impact our audience, we can't actually control. We can't control the number of parking spots. We can't control whether the parking is paid for or not. However, knowing that for the moment that our audience member has decided they're going to purchase that ticket to how they got to the ticket purchase and was it smooth and was it clear and are the policies there? Like if you have a non-refundable ticket or if you have a no late entry, is that stated from, the very beginning. And I've had audiences, you know, my company used to be based in Houston, Texas, and we could say a lot of things about Houston traffic. And my audience wanted to know that there was a there was major traffic. Why didn't you hold your show for half an hour for me? I'm sorry, I had 50% of my audience show up half an hour late. But they will, they all wanted to know why didn't you hold the show for for me. And I can't control that. But But it's the audience's experience starts from the moment that they decide to purchase the ticket or the moment that they saw the ad all the way through to the end. The restrooms that you have available in the venue. Did they have to walk over people to get to their seat? I think part of it is actually being an audience member. I think sometimes as choreographers, as designers, we're just looking at the work itself. But can we put ourselves in the shoes of the audience member? Can we be an audience member? And I extend that into the investment in the community. If there are other people presenting in your community, go see them. Absolutely.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that happen. We want the whole community to, we're all going to be more successful if the whole community is successful. So let's just work together. And I think that's It's hard for especially independent choreographers because one thing is you're just busy. But... And maybe you lean towards appreciating a certain type of work over another. But absolutely, going to other people's performances is crucial to investing in the community, for sure.

Amy Elizabeth:

But it will absolutely also put you back in the role of understanding what an audience member is looking for. Like you said, I go to shows. I can't see your work. Now I'm in distress. So now I'm going to go back into my process. I'm going to sit in every show. in that house.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yes, Amy, I suggest that all the time. Sit in the venue in different areas, every night, sit in a different spot. Imagine that there are people, have somebody sit in front of you and make sure. Yeah, you're getting me all heated up here. I'm so sorry. We work too hard. We do. To make this thing and then for audiences to be ignored in that equation is just really irritating to me.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah, I hear you. And again, these are just things that we as choreographers, we get into our own minds, get into our own way of thinking and doing things. And we're just not mindful of these things. It's like the student that isn't aware. You don't know what you don't know. That's absolutely right, Amy. Yeah. So ask the questions and really put yourself out there. Yeah. And so I think this also goes in line with what you're talking about investing in the community is that you have many hats and you've worked with many organizations and just doing a multitude of things that includes leadership in the community and so as a dancer a choreographer an arts leader yourself how did your dance training enhance or empower your work in those leadership roles whether they be dance leadership or community leadership

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Thank you so much. But you also learn about other people. And I'm going to make this real basic. You learn how to share space. You understand your personal space. You try not to infringe on other space. You learn how to share that. You learn how to cooperate. You learn how to work together on a common goal. You learn about different learning styles, different backgrounds, such a diverse group of people that will come to dance. You're exposed to so many different styles. And I ideas and Mm-hmm. I think just gives dancers an edge. And I am not kidding when I say I wish every member of Congress would have to take a 15-minute, some kind of movement class at the beginning of the day, because the people skills and the working together and the cooperation... while also maintaining your personal autonomy is really important to me. And you learn so much from those years of study, as you know, from all those different teachers and all those different environments and spaces. And you learn what works for you. And what works for me is having a leader that models what they want from me. So, for example, if I value being on time, I'm going to be the first one there and the last one to leave. If I value dancers being prepared Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The other part of, I think, good leadership is knowing how to make the hard decisions, the hard artistic ones and the hard business ones, and making those so that you can move forward. So I don't know how much of that I experienced. Well, yeah, sometimes you get roles, sometimes you don't. But yeah, I think that's important also, setting out those clear expectations and then enforcing them.

Amy Elizabeth:

And sometimes that can be the hardest part. Because, I mean, if I know anything about dancers, there's a level of empathy that comes along that can sometimes get us into trouble because we feel we have a level of understanding. So coming from that, the humanness, as I call it, that Sometimes those hard decisions are telling the person that you are invested in and that you love dearly. That's your third time being late to rehearsal. You're now imposing on the process. I'm going to have to release you from this process. But I'll see you tonight at dinner.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yes. And I love you and I wish the best for you, but this is not working for me here. And it's sabotaging the work. And for me, the work was really important. And yeah, if you're not a contributor to that.

Amy Elizabeth:

Mm-hmm.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

then yeah, sometimes you have to part ways.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah, I mean, you said a moment ago, getting heated, something you're very passionate about, that comment about walking your talk. Yes, please. What do you expect of others? That's a huge one for me, is that I think the most disrespectful thing you could do for your dancers is to not value their time. Yes,

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

yes. Even if

Amy Elizabeth:

they're being

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

paid. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, Amy. Absolutely. I wanted to say something else. Let me see if I can bring it back. I'm not sure I can. But you were talking about walking the walk. Yeah. I lost it. It's no big deal. Anyway, we

Amy Elizabeth:

can carry on. Carry on. And can you give an example of that from your own life or working with students and dancers?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

We should just be called resilient artists because if you're in the arts, you are resilient. I mean, if you're going to succeed in the arts, you must be resilient. And for me, that means creative problem solving to get you out of those tough situations and finding a workaround. And I feel like we are faced with that often. All the time, whether it's I can't find a performance venue or this dancer is injured and our show is next week. We didn't get the funding we expected. So we're constantly because dance is about people. We're constantly working with people. And so there are going to be things we have to work around always. But those creative problem solving skills that you get as an artist or as a dancer are super important. And. I can give, I think my best example is COVID. And wow, did we show how resilient we are in COVID. So learning how to, you know, set up a home studio in my garage and teaching whether it's 100 degrees outside or 17 degrees outside. Or when I say outside, I mean in the garage where I was teaching.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Doing those hybrid classes, figuring that out, figuring out how are we going to do this? Because I am passionate about dancing and teaching and choreographing. So how am I going to do it? And, you know, one of the things we did were the lake dances. So that very first summer, Stephen Pruitt and I collaborated on lake dances where we put each dancer on their own platform out on the lake. And... But, you know, we were also, we didn't know that much. We didn't want to touch each other. We didn't want to get around each other. We kept our, we were so far distant. But once they got on those platforms, they were free and they could perform. And people all along the trails would stop and watch. Even across the lake, we could see them across the lake watching from afar. So talk about resilience, that's probably the biggest example. I had another one that I oftentimes young artists starting out that at one point my dance company was almost broke seriously almost broke and I was just I didn't know what to do and my husband suggested to me look at everything you do with new eyes with a new perspective as though you were starting all over today and what you what can you do differently look at everything you do and that was such a great kind of redo you know do over but it got us through and I made some decisions by looking at that that got us through so I just think if you're passionate about what you do you're going to find a way and we might be the most resilient people of all especially now you know with these with all the arts funding cuts we will find a way we will find a way through these tough times because that's what we do

Amy Elizabeth:

yeah but I mean it goes back to that idea of creative problem solving and defining what does this word creative mean? Because we're making choices. We're solving problems all the time. Yeah. You know, I'm hungry. That's my problem. The solution is I'm going to eat. And I know it's on a very micro scale. It seems a little flippant to use that example. But being aware and acknowledging that we are in a constant choice making mode. And I think that choice is a problem. there's a problem, I will solve it. But this idea of creative problem solving and what is, for lack of better words, what's so special about that idea of a creative problem solver is versus someone who just puts out fires all day? I

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

don't know. I need to think about that, Amy.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah. That's just what that made me think is because I've worked with leaders, administrators, supervisors, bosses, people higher up. And a lot of times I hear them say, I just put out fires all day. I just put out fires all day. And so I think that there's a difference between Putting out fires, which I think when we verbalize it that way, it could potentially be, I gave someone an answer. I solved it for them. I gave them a pathway or I gave them an idea. Or is this the idea of creative problem solving where we actually... figure out a solution or a new pathway. The idea of creative innovation, something we hadn't thought of before, something that didn't seem like an option previously.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yes, it's moving forward. But you said it right there. It's something we haven't thought of before or done before. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Trust me, I would never have made a dance for a lake. No, never. Never. I'm a theater person. I want to have a little more control. So, yeah, doing something maybe that you hadn't thought of before. Right, right. Because the problems are different all the time.

Amy Elizabeth:

They are. They absolutely are. Okay. So you say you're a theater person. You like to be in the theater. You did this experience. You were pushed outside of your comfort zone to do this experience. Can you reflect on that for a moment? And is there something other than I tried something I hadn't done before or how those two things translated for you? How did you take what you experienced and have in the theater and move it outdoor into this environment?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

How did I translate? How did I go from the theater experience to a lake experience?

Amy Elizabeth:

Is that the question? Yeah. Or what are the similarities or differences? Or what did you learn from that? Because, I mean, you wouldn't have chosen to go to the lake. This was your creative option. This was the art must happen. I'm going to create the art. So I guess being put in that situation, outside of your control... What were you able to, did you find similarities in that process? Did you find differences? Did we learn something new? Would we do it again?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

We did it the second summer also, believe it or not. I mean, it's, I still wanted to make, the similarities are so small, so few. I still wanted to make a good work. I still wanted my dancers to dance. You know, I still wanted to choreograph a good work. I still wanted to challenge my dancers. I still wanted to challenge myself. But I feel like that's where those similarities ended because now you can dance on a very small space and there There is a risk that you are going to fall in the water, which did happen many times. Getting the platforms just right so that they weren't too slippery and had some friction. But, you know, I mean, that was Stephen's thing. It was a lot. But I want to say that it reinforced for me the importance of the arts and in my field, the dance, because people would just stop in their tracks and want to watch and then thank us for doing that for them. These are people that many of whom might have never even been in a theater before.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

So that was really one of the most heartwarming things is turning and looking at the people who are looking at the dancers. That was awesome. But then we had things like, which way is the current flowing today? What's the weather like? Uh-oh, we have a storm coming in. There goes a snake. Yep. Is the algae toxic today? Can you swim? I mean, there are so many things that are different from being in a theater. Yes. But I still wanted the work itself to still be a work of art that showed the dancers at their best.

Amy Elizabeth:

Mm-hmm. So you've been doing this for a lifetime, as we have discussed. Yes. You've recently made this major shift in your role in the company. Now, the company still holds your name, right? So we're talking about this idea of control in the theater and how we would prefer to have these control elements. And so how does that for you? How do you feel passing? I mean, you've poured into this company for so many years. And like you say, it almost went broke once, but we figured out how to get it back. So how does it go about handing it over to the next generation? I

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

am so happy. I am so thrilled that I could get the dance company in a position to be given over to someone. So mine was because of a health diagnosis. I did not plan on retiring. That was not my plan, but I had to. Alison Dolan, who's been in the company with me, I think 15 years. I could be wrong, but I think it's a long time. And She became the acting artistic director and basically had to take over just on a dime and take over a lot of the company responsibilities. I was still around. I was there to help. I was there to advise. We had really, we spent about a year just me mentoring her, I guess, through that process and supporting her until she was ready to take over as the full artistic director. I don't care if it has my name on it. She is just going to call it KDH instead of Kathy Dunn Hamrick Dance Company. It'll be KDH. But she's welcome to change the name of that when she's ready. I think we both felt we didn't want to make too many drastic changes right away. Let's just ease into this transition. And that's what we did. I I want to see great work made. I want to see great dancers dancing. I want to see great dance classes in the community. And that's what the company provides. And that's what I'm happy about. It's Allison's company now, and she's doing a fantastic job. And it's pretty cool to be able to leave that to somebody. Now, granted, she had to, like, jump on a moving train and try to take over this thing that, you know, that was built by someone else, but she's doing a great job. And it does really, really make me so happy. I can't tell you that they are continuing.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah,

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

I can,

Amy Elizabeth:

I

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

can see

Amy Elizabeth:

that. I can see that. I

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

still teach two dances, dance classes a week for them though. So I'm still in the studio, not nearly as much as I used to be. I can only do those two classes a week, but yeah, I still watch them in rehearsal. I get feedback. I still get to teach my classes and be with my people. So I still have my foot in the, no, I'm not going to say, no, I'm here if she needs me, but it's her company. And I'm happy to help if she asks for my help, but she's doing a great job and I'm really, really happy for her.

Amy Elizabeth:

Well, and it goes back to what you said about when you started the company and what you didn't know. And you also mentioned being surrounded by a lot of supportive people. And I think that that's what Allison has and knows that she has. I'm projecting and presuming here, but to have you there to say, you know, these are the mistakes that I made, you know, or if you have a problem, let's talk about it. And being that source of encouragement, empowerment and support for her on this process after doing it for 25 years. experience is a PhD, in my opinion. Just give it to you. But to have that level of experience right there at your fingertips when you're starting out and branching out into something that you may not have done before, that's priceless. And it's really incredible you can be there for her. That's actually

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

why I wrote my book. I thought, they're going to need to take over. They're going to need to know certain things. What have I learned over that they need to know now. So I first started with just a business handbook. And I made it available to all the dancers in the company. I just kept it up at the office because they're all choreographers. They're all artists. They all have independent careers as artists. So I did a business handbook first. And then I thought, okay, as a gift to my five dancers that I have right now, I'm going to just make a little book of all the things I've learned to help them succeed in their own way, not to copy my decisions, but to help them become the best that they can be and help them navigate as an artist in the community. And it was just sort of a, I was just handwriting it, you know, in some journals. And I got frustrated. It just looked terrible. It wasn't what I envisioned. And anyway, showed it to my husband, who actually was a book publisher and an editor. And he was like, oh, my gosh, let's make a book. So he's the one that got the designer and all of that. But I'm just saying that that's what I wanted to do with the book was to help others find their own way, their own successful way. Yes. Learn from the mistakes I made. Learn from the things I learned. Go. Because this is a great life.

Amy Elizabeth:

But can you take a moment and maybe share one or two of the things that you really wanted them to take away from this?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

I think it's the things that we've already talked about. You know, invest in your community. Think about the audience experience. Be the kind of leader that you want to lead. Be respectful and kind. All of the things we've just talked about, really. There is a little bit about budgets and grants and things like that. But I would say the most part is how to conduct yourself as an artist and to lead a long, successful, fulfilling life as a dancer.

Amy Elizabeth:

Yeah. And it's those tools. that hope, move forward. That forward motion we've been talking about is how do we move forward when we come against X, Y, Z? What is that forward motion?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yes, yes, yes. And that's actually, that is one of the, a lot of the book of self-reflection has asked yourself these questions. And one of them is under the leadership, are you resilient? Because you need to be resilient if you're going to be a leader in this field.

Amy Elizabeth:

Mm-hmm. Resilience in the sense of, because we've been defining resilience in many ways in this podcast, and we're going to have you do it at the end. But I do think that the resilience, even as we wear multiple hats, I think resilience looks different to us in many different ways. And I was, I'll just tell you, I was recording a podcast yesterday with Jennifer Monson of Island, and I've been looking at resilience as an end point this entire time that resilience is a product in a sense. You're not stopping and thinking, I am being resilient now, or this moment needs me to be resilient. It's after you've made it over or through or around whatever obstacle, then you can say, oh, I used those tools. I was resilient. This is fantastic. And so in that way, I've been looking at resilience as a product or as an endpoint and talking with Jennifer about this idea of She's talking a lot about birds and migrations and the flow of things. And so for her, it was about actually standing in the center of it, having a sense of awareness and an allowance of whatever it may be. And I hadn't actually connected those things. And I'm curious to see if I can be more present in the moment when it comes to how we create a problem solve, when it comes to the decisions that we're making in that moment. But I think more so for me, I'm an extremely reactive person. Whoops. I don't mind it, but sometimes the people around I react and then I catch my breath. And now we can think. And now we can find that path forward. And so it's can you find that... Can you find the flow of it? Can you find the encouraging energy flow through it so that it is just a way of being and it's not something outside of yourself? Because I think that's what a product is. A product is something external. I'm looking at it internal now.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Yeah. Hearing you talk that way, yeah. I want to say two things. First of all, resilience is not fun and easy. I would love it. to have to be resilient ever again. But we do, and it can be messy and hard and gut-wrenching. Yes, all of those things. I'm also going to say, though, the other thing I never thought I'd ever, ever have to talk about is having a terminal diagnosis. And I feel like I have become so much more present, Amy, as you're putting it. Present in making those decisions in a more present way is how I've had to conduct my life over the past two years. And so I hear you. Yes. I wish I could have learned that 30 years ago. It took this to teach me that. But it's an important lesson. It's a life lesson. It's a life lesson. I always say that in dance class. This is a life lesson right here.

Amy Elizabeth:

I mean, it is that cheesy saying, you know, dance is life, life is dance. Well, yes and yes. And yes, but as dancers... we acknowledge this, whether it's an intuitive knowledge, where that knowledge comes from. I think it is from a sense of... Yep. sense of that whole I

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

love that you said dance demands 100% because it does it deserves it it demands it and it's been it has it has been so helpful for me over these always my whole life it has gotten me through so many things but now it's getting me through the hardest thing ever and I'm happy to have it

Amy Elizabeth:

So we're not, as you just said, we're not leaving dance behind. Yes, we have the word retirement, but we're not leaving dance behind. Retirement does not mean exiting stage left. It means finding a different seat in the house. That's it. So what does your relationship with the art look like moving forward? How do you

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

expect to engage? I'm having such a great time, honestly. So I'm not trying to plug my book here, but I'm just saying Oh, please do. Please do. We're going to link it. Kate, but that is my Kathy Dunn Hamrick version two of my life. And Kate Warren and I sat together and talked about this book. For maybe a year, six months or a year, we would get together every other week and talk for about three hours about dance. And wow, I wish everybody had three hours a week to spend with someone like Kate to talk about dance. And I learned so much from talking to her and having to put my thoughts into words. So once that was out, cool, that's done. Okay, fine, next. And I wrote, I recently wrote a review of interiors Allison's new work I'm working on an interview with Kate about how we talk about dance because I found that very hard after all my I've been in a choreographer I've been a choreographer for I don't know my first piece was at 18 you know when I got my first check I've seen hundreds of shows I've seen works by hundreds of choreographers and I still could walk out of a theater being elated moved angry upset disappointed but not really know why not be able to articulate why and I've learned that from her because she's so good at it so she's kind of the one that got me thinking about writing and so this interview with her about how we talk about dance because I feel like it's a problem for a lot of people and so I'm writing that article and I have a couple of other ideas for some other profiles and articles so I'm doing it with writing so that's keeping me very connected to dance it's something I can do on my good days and when I want to and no set deadlines you know as a dancer you're just up against deadlines all the time and so that's my connection besides my two dance classes my connection is is writing about dance now and I'm having a blast I love it

Amy Elizabeth:

What is your wish for the art of dance and its role in our communities and our daily experiences?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

I'm going to talk directly. I just want to say to everyone out there that a life in dance means being creative every single day, learning new things every day, being inspired by all the people around you, constantly changing and evolving and adapting and looking forward to going to work and ultimately becoming a better version of you. making a positive impact on your community and having a community of amazing people wherever you go. And dance gives back. It's going to give you what you give to others. And what a life. So get yourself some knowledge, figure it out, go out there and have that life and dance because it's great.

Amy Elizabeth:

It is a great life.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

We're so lucky. We're so lucky. Yes. We're so lucky.

Amy Elizabeth:

Very reflective. Thank you. And thank you for sharing your lifetime of knowledge and experience with us and our listeners. One final task in our time together. This is our rapid round where we have you complete two sentences. You ready? I'm ready. All right. Sentence number one. Resilience is?

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Using your creative problem-solving skills to find alternative pathways to success. Mm-hmm.

Amy Elizabeth:

And number two, dance has taught me. The importance of community. Yeah, absolutely. It's my community. It's my family. It's the people and the places and the ideas that have poured into and shaped the map that is my person. I feel the same. Absolutely how I step into and embrace the world every day. Yeah. Kathy, thank you so much for taking the time to sit and talk with me today. And we are going to promote that book. We are going to put links in our show notes. I mean, 25 years as a PhD, okay? So they need to know where to get this book and go and get it and learn. Awesome. Thank you so much. I only have about 10 copies left. We may have to print some more after this. Yes. So thank you so much.

Kathy Dunn Hamrick:

Thank you, Amy, for having me. I've really enjoyed talking to

Amy Elizabeth:

you today. Thank you for joining us for this intimate and inspiring conversation of Kathy's lifetime experience and practice in dance. It is because of artists like Kathy who have endured the tough moments and maintained forward motion that small companies such as Aimed Dance have a path to follow. It is an honor to learn from her. You can find access to Kathy's book in the show notes. Leave us a comment and let us know what you took away from your time with Kathy today. Be sure to click subscribe and share with a friend or colleague. Leave us a review on Spotify and you'll be entered into a drawing for Dance Unscripted merch. You could have chosen any other platform and you chose us and you chose dance. And for that, we will always be grateful. Thank you to the Lamar University Center for Resiliency for making season one possible. Dance Unscripted is presented by Aimed Dance.